Hills for breakfast, hold the gnats

Hi Sno -- congrats on the PR!

May is two months away, I think you definately still have a shot at a BQ - yes, you still have some residual effects from the hilly 5K PR last weekend, you essentially trained-through this race. I would resist the temptation (at least it would be my temptation) to run too hard to "ensure" the BQ in the upcoming months -- think long term committment here. I think you did outstanding! I don't think you really "died" at mile 10, I think the hills just wore you down a bit, I think the last mile should be pretty encouraging - you still had enough to finish strong. Hilly courses are hard ... you can't get into a 'groove' and any mistiming of pace can really cost later when the hills are at the end.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE reading your race reports (well, actually just your regular running reports, too!) YOU DID AWESOME!!!! I agree with Bonnie, you totally have a chance at the BQ. A hilly course does not compare to a flat course in any way, shape, or form! You think the hills are not getting to you, but they are!

"Mile 10, the dark times. Here is where one of my great character flaws comes in. When I get to a certain level of tiredness, I have a hard time caring. Goals are reevaluated. Not walking becomes a great virtue. Mile 11, I rallied, as you can see. Mile 12, I had the school spirit but no pom-poms. Did my best."

I love that. I may have to use it as my quote of the day (if you do not mind!!!) That just sums up what I KNOW EVERY runner goes through at some point or another. And, man, when you say you rallied, you rallied! You were able to get past the runners funk and get yourself going again. That is so cool!

Best of luck to you in the next 2 months of training! You will do GREAT!

I don't have any answers to your burning questions, but I'm sure today's race will only help you as you prepare for Eugene in May. Good luck with the final 6 weeks of preparations.

Congratulations! A great half marathon, PR on a tough course, and you're training through this race on your way to a BQ in May. Looks like you're right on track!

That is an EXCELLENT race. Those tough hills are what make us WONDER WOMEN!!! You are one tough cookie and keep well and that BQ can be your :D WAY TO GO!!!

Great job, Snoqualmie! Way to PR!

That really does sound like a tough course, particularly the start area. And weaving through people is the pits.

I think it should be illegal to end a race with an up hill. Just my two cents.

You've definately got a shot at a BQ in May.

I loved the "school spirit but no pom poms" line. You really write great race/training reports. You have such detailed descriptions of the race.

Sno! you did a great job! You beat my time at Moab. You were faster from last year... I wish I could say the same, I was about 5 minutes slower. I can relate to the not walking being a virture, I was happy that I only walked when I got water at the aid stations. The aid stations were a mad house, I could have probably been a minutes or two faster if I had worn a water belt.

I love reading your posts..you are too funny! stop over thinking! You can totally make Boston! This was a hilly course! an you PR'ed (is that a word? LOL) I would have died...I really think your calf pain is from the hills

just use your stick and roll out that soreness! You rock my socks off!

did i miss it? or did you run the first two easy runs right before the race?

Hey, everyone! What a long day it's been. Finally getting around to reading everyone's comments, which is such a treat! (Don't you guys just love it too?)

Bonnie- Now that you are my personal coach (whether you like it or not, lol) I'm very pleased to get your take on the race. There were many times in the race when I thought of things you've written, like "go by feel, don't look at the watch too much." Very helpful. I never heard that phrase "trained through" before.

Kelli- Quote away! I'm honored.

Lori- I'm going over to read your report next! I hope you're not disappointed; you know you've had a hard year and I've had the best year of my running yet.

Carolyn- yes, illegal, punishable by porta potty incarceration?

April- Yes, I did a 2 mile warm up.

Everybody- Thanks for reading, commenting, and putting up with my long winded reports. Cheers!

Never quit with the longwindedness-I learn so much from you!!!!

Maybe I need to hire Bonnie to be my trainer since I seem to be the only one who did not race smart this weekend?!? She seems to have given the rest of you running geniuses great advice.

I am excited to see how the marathon goes for you, and everything leading up to it! You are truly amazing and inspiring, keep it up! And here is to hoping you get some beautiful spring weather for the rest of your training!

Sweet!! A PR is a PR- especially on a tough course like that. Great job!

Belated congrats on a well run race. Aren't those hilly ones fun? You did very well and have a really good shot at your BQ goal, given the right weather and the right day on a flat course. You *can* do it!

Thanks, Dale! I thought of you this morning (Monday)... you're the first one who told me that my post-race, "active recovery" runs were a good idea. That's why I can feel good about a slug-slow run this morning. :)

I just want to echo the comments that you write a quality blog. I look forward to seeing you BQ in may.

I think for you doubling that in a marathon is very possible. The main enemies would be being out of fuel, and the resulting panic, getting discouraged because your pace has dropped.

My feeling is that you might have the "impossible to close strong" condition. For some reasons, probably of neuromuscular nature, the only way you can run a negative split would be to start out at a pace significantly below your potential. If that is the case, your performance is maximized when you make proper use of fresh legs and buy yourself a cushion in the first half without going overboard.

So the approach I would recommend is to go out at 8:50 pace and run it until it starts feeling hard. Then slow down to 9:00 pace. Try to get to mile 20 with no miles slower than 9:00. Then you can play the game of holding off the BQ girl. Pretend she is running after you with a knife. but the finish chute saves you. If you keep your last 6 miles under 10:36, she won't catch you. For every mile under 10:36, your cushion becomes puffier.

Probably from 20 to 22 you will still be sub-10:00. So that is another minute to your cushion. Then from 22 to 24 do not walk for any reason, just keep running no matter what, that will be the hardest part mentally. If you succeed then from 24 to 26 you will have a reason to run your best because BQ will be very attainable.

With that approach, your training should focus on learning to run 8:50 pace most economically. So the bulk of the long runs should happen at that pace, adjusted for the terrain and the conditions. Once you've found the rhythm visualize driving a car that is low on fuel but you need to get somewhere under a time constraint and drive yourself like you would drive the car. No accelerations, easy on hills. Try to relax. Act like a victim of famine that does not know when he is going to eat next except with the constraint the pace must be 8:50.

Regarding fading at mile 10. I believe your fading happens for neuromuscular reasons, not due to the lack of aerobic endurance. Hills make it worse, because they spike the neuromuscular load and put you in the neurological red zone. So while most people running right next to you are out of breath, you cannot go any faster because your brain has reached its limit in ability to recruit your muscles. You may feel like your legs are not strong enough, or you may just feel like you have no clue why you cannot speed up.

This type of problem cannot be fixed by running a lot of miles on a hilly terrain. In fact, this can make it worse for a runner that is aerobically fit. His aerobic fitness does not allow him to notice the accumulating neurological fatigue.

I have had a measure of success dealing with this problem using short explosive sprints 3-5 seconds in duration, trying to reach the maximum possible speed.

I so love the BQ girl chasing you with a knife!!!! That cracked me up. Thanks for letting me lurk and read Sasha's advice, it so always so insightful (but not always so darn funny)!

Thank you for your comments Sasha. The imagery is so useful, and I do well with that sort of mental exercise.

I do not understand why a positive split will work better than a negative split. My PR (4:17) in 2007 was a negative split, it's true. I did hold on to 8:50's until around mile 18, and then I came apart completely. So I got my best time there, but I always wonder whether I could have run smarter, and therefore faster. I had the "death march" that day. I still wonder if I could have run 9:15's instead, and not have fallen apart.

I hope that "impossible to close strong" is a temporary situation, which will abate as I progress. Have you found it to be a permanent condition in runners you know? Yikes!

Why will running a lot of miles in hills not help the neuromuscular response? If a runner's aerobic fitness does not allow him to "notice" the accumulating fatique, will his body not adapt nonetheless over time?

I also have a question about your last comment, regarding 3-5 second explosive sprints. What is the context of these sprints? During long runs? During the race itself?

I'm sorry to bother you with so many questions, but I want to thoroughly understand your advice. Thanks again!

I have quite a bit of experience with the "Impossible to close strong" condition. I've run 45 marathons. The best ones were a positive split by about 3 minutes adjusted for the terrain. I've tried various methods to try to fix it. I practice closing strong in most of my long runs, but to no avail. I still race best when I use my legs while they're fresh, and then hang on once they get tired. Maybe we should call it the rotten banana problem. Eat your bananas before they go bad.

This condition is actually not that uncommon. You see guys running under 2:10 with a 3 minute positive split quite often.

When you run, your neuromuscular system does the job of running while your aerobic and fuel systems are only acting as support. Most runners cannot go faster because they lack the support. But some cannot run faster because they do not have enough fighter jets and bombers - their brain is not able to recruit their muscles adequately, or the muscles are just weak in and of themselves.

I am inclined to think that regardless of the level you are performing at the underlying cause of "cannot close strong" is aerobic and fuel systems being developed better than neuromuscular. Your nervous system has its limits. It can only fire so hard, and only for so long. If there is not enough oxygen, it stops firing. If there is not enough glycogen, it stops firing as well. But if you gave it infinite supplies of oxygen and glycogen, it still has a limit of its own. Most recreational runners will not reach that limit because their aerobic conditioning lacks severely. Elites reach it more often, but many still don't. I think the cut-off to a great extent is negative splitter vs positive splitter. Negative splitter is limited aerobically or fuel-wise, positive splitter that can only PR with a positive split is limited neuromuscularly.

On the other hand, a runner with a weak nervous system can reach it off a very modest aerobic conditioning.

The reason mileage does not fix it. Mileage improves aerobic fitness and fuel storage. It does only a little bit for the nervous system. Mostly it helps you optimize your movements and avoid waste. But past a certain point it does not give you a stronger neurological signal or the ability to sustain that signal for a long time. It only increases the supply of fuel and ammunition, but does not give you extra fighter jets or bombers. Once you have enough for your fleet, more does not increase your fighting capability.

So to address the problem we need to do something different. This is still a very new area of research, I have not seen it discussed very much in scientific literature. Everything is very experimental. They do know that muscle recruitment ability can be trained by recruiting as many fibers as you can at once, or in other words a short burst of maximum effort. How many times, exactly for how long, how much rest, how many times a week - I think it is very individual. A strong nervous system could handle more often than a weak one.

It would have to be bursts of maximum speed, though. In your case, I would recommend keeping them very short, and not very frequent. Maybe do it twice a week 4 times during your easy run resting in between until you feel excited about doing it again. Preferably up a hill. About 3-5 seconds, ease off and coast to a jog as soon as you start feeling you cannot go any faster, do not hold the top speed for more than a second or two. You know you are doing it right if your tempo runs start getting faster with no other change in training, and your legs start feeling like they have more spring in them. If your legs are sore, the tempo runs get slower at the same effort, you have a hard time going to sleep, you feel irritated during the day, then you are doing too much.

FASCINATING!! Thank you so much for taking the time to write this all out!

Many things you said ring true to me. I have always felt uneasy when people told me I faded in marathons due to running out of fuel. That is such a common perception! But I never felt like fuel was my problem, though I had no proof.

One last quick question if you don't mind. Is this issue related to Matt Fitzgerald's work? I don't have his book (http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Training-Runners-Revolutionary-andResults/dp/0451222326) but I skimmed it from the library once.

Thanks again Sasha! Very interesting!

first of all, WAY TO GO!! you did great in this race, and just think, you still have 2 more months to get even more dominant before eugene.

second, this is all really fascinating, is all of this great info and advice given located in articles or something somewhere on the blog? because this is really helpful info!

last, maybe you could recruit someone to run behind you with a knife? :-)

Congrats on the PR! I get these types of doubts all the time, and then sometimes I get those days when I wonder why I ever doubted yourself. I think you definitely have a chance at getting that BQ. It's certainly not a given, but what fun would racing be if you knew the outcome beforehand :) Best of luck!

Sasha, that is a fascinating write-up.

Congrats on a great run! And thanks, I think we all learned a little in Sasha's write up.

I agree with Sasha's race day approach. For my marathon I needed to run 8:23 miles to qualify for Boston. So I ran 8:10s as long as I comfortably could, and counted all that as "time in the bank." I think I started using my piggy bank around mile 16, and just kept track of the time I had left. I'm gross and do a ton of math while I am running though, haha. For this approach I definitely recommend buying a pace tat for the big day, to do some of the thinking for you.

Good luck with your training and thanks for being our guinea pig :)

Hey Kelsey - that's why you'll be such a great hurricane specialist - isn't that what you study? Constant recalculation of the variables... I like math too and have been accused on this very blog of "overthinking." hahahaha No, they're right. I need my brain to shut up sometimes. :)

I think Sasha should write this up to submit for publication in Marathon & Beyond. Unlike Runners' World, M&B actually prints ideas that wouldn't make it through the Conformity And Political Correctness Test. How about it, Sasha?